00:00:00: Hello and welcome everybody.

00:00:02: My name is Jan Kehlange, you're listening to Talking Progress, a podcast by das Progessive Zentrum.

00:00:09: This podcast explores new ideas for social progress in Germany Europe and transatlantic spaces.

00:00:15: today You are listening to our Transatlantic series on the Industrial Heartlands And The Just Transition.

00:00:21: This Podcast Is part of A project called Transatlantic Dialogue On the Industrial heartlands shaping the future.

00:00:28: It's a collaborative effort led by the Progressive Centrum, working alongside our dear partners at The Progressive Policy Institute, Georgetown University's BMW Center for German-European Studies and Chicago Council on Global Affairs.

00:00:41: That's through Heartlands in United States & Germany standard historic turning point!

00:00:47: After decades of industrial decline and only partial virtualization, these regions confront overlapping challenges of geopolitical tension economic uncertainty and technological transformation.

00:00:58: With our project we have been developing solutions for a better greener and more democratic life in the industrial heartlands.

00:01:10: Today, we will focus on the key insights of our closing conference titled Heartlands Navigating Rearmament, Recarbonization and Realignment.

00:01:20: This conference held in December twenty-twenty five served as a grand finale to our project while this closing conference marked the official end of the project.

00:01:29: The dialogue does not stop here In this episode you want to focus on.

00:01:36: During our project, we have visited places in the industrial core regions of U.S and Germany like Pittsburgh & Cottbus We wanted to explore how communities are managing challenges and opportunities for ongoing structural transformation.

00:01:53: While there different dynamics at play on each side of the Atlantic And really also within each area You could identify as a substantial influence local governments On day-to-day life with its citizens.

00:02:06: Is the school well equipped?

00:02:08: is a bus still running in evening?

00:02:10: Will energy bill keep on rising?

00:02:12: What happens to my job if local industrial structures fade?

00:02:16: These are largely matters for the local government and this what's on people mind?

00:02:21: And it important find accountable and well communicated answers Because uncertainty, opaque communication and shortcomings in delivering these fundamentals erode trust in politicians and diminishes democratic participation.

00:02:36: We could see this in the past elections on federal-and state level, The cost of living, economic uncertainty And discontent with public services by main drivers to turn to populist driving parties Even more so in regions facing fast paced and substantial structural transformations.

00:02:56: As we have already discussed winning over the former industrial hubs Pennsylvania and Michigan in

00:03:03: U.S.,

00:03:03: were pivotal for the win of Donald Trump's last presidential elections, And we are on middle-of an important election year.

00:03:12: After municipal and state level elections in four states in Germany Four more are to come In November.

00:03:19: all eyes will be on the midterm elections.

00:03:23: at the same time These transformational processes are also opportunities for democratic and economic resilience.

00:03:31: Innovative forward thinking in local governance can produce central new industrial sites, putting these places that do not matter back on the map.

00:03:42: Transatlantic cooperation between cities and municipalities can strengthen democratic ties which is so important looking at the increasingly intertwining uncertainties from climate and trade to security.

00:03:57: At our high-level mayor panel, shifting the tide as part of a closing conference we welcome two mayors in Germany – Eckhard Wurzner and Steve Patterson who talk with us about their transition strategies.

00:04:10: Eckhard Würzner has been Lord Mayor of Heidelberg since and is known for its strong focus on climate protection in sustainable urban development.

00:04:20: Since twenty nineteen, Wirtzner has also served as first vice president of the Association of German Cities.

00:04:27: In this national role he represents the interests of german municipalities in discussions with federal state governments particularly on climate housing an urban policy.

00:04:38: Mayor Steve Patterson has lived in Athens since nineteen ninety-eight and served as an associate professor at Ohio University until becoming mayor in twenty sixteen.

00:04:49: He is active on numerous boards, including as immediate past president of the National League of Cities and chair of the Sustainable Ohio Public Energy Council and OPEC.

00:05:01: The two cities seem different at first glance but with a deeper look they reveal a common challenge for structural transformation.

00:05:09: Their conversation focuses on what lies work to develop general principles for local governance that provides an anchor of stability in times of transformation, forces democratic dialogue and leads the way to sustainable modern economic hubs.

00:05:24: Enjoy listening to their conversation with Claire Ansley director of The Project On Centerlife Renewal at the Progressive Policy Institute who moderated this panel.

00:05:34: A little bit about Athens Ohio.

00:05:37: we are community that was established in seventeen ninety seven by Charter from president Thomas Jefferson at the time to create a Community.

00:05:50: That has an institution of higher education, which is really a blessing To me.

00:05:55: with The City of Athens were home to Ohio University Which was Established In eighteen.

00:05:59: oh four.

00:06:01: We're in the heart Of the Appalachian region of Ohio.

00:06:05: there are thirty two Appalaching Counties.

00:06:09: basically are in close proximity to the Ohio River, and with that as you can imagine we have certainly lived through our series of booms.

00:06:22: when it came to extraction.

00:06:24: The Appalachian region has largely been operating off an extractive economy.

00:06:32: first believe it or not, it was trees de-neutering everything but then it transitioned to discovering oil.

00:06:39: That was harvested until there's nothing left and they moved on to coal end of late although we're at the very southern edge of the Marcellus shale.

00:06:51: play natural gas much like Pennsylvania.

00:06:56: New York in other states have recognized that resource is there.

00:07:06: But to the fact that we have Ohio University, again it's a real advantage for my community and that it lends itself to us being pretty forward thinking in how we address climate change, be good stewards of Southeast Ohio reach a goal that I find truly remarkable to where our carbon emissions per capita is the lowest in the state of Ohio and it's in the top ten percent United States, which we fully recognize.

00:07:45: And a lot of it because of our movement too.

00:07:48: make sure that renewable energy is in our portfolio for all over municipal electric accounts.

00:07:57: We have also kind made things easier for our residents here in the city of Athens to have solar on their homes or ground mount and they're yards somewhere.

00:08:08: To where we used a group called SoulSmart, And were able to achieve soul smart platinum which basically means a resident in Athens can apply for permit.

00:08:19: put solar on there homes take advantage some credits that are out And they can get that permit within twenty four hours, which is unheard of for permitting in residential neighborhoods these days.

00:08:34: But we were able to achieve that and to that end Athens also has been home to several local solar companies.

00:08:46: once upon a time We had more solar installers per capita than any other city.

00:08:54: change occurs, that has shifted.

00:08:57: But we have been working closely with Cocosing Solar which Cocosing Construction is one of the largest construction firms in the nation.

00:09:06: when it comes to general contractors.

00:09:09: they have also kind of migrated into the solar world and The thing that we really honor about a relationship That We Have With Cocosing They're the ones who built out our two point one megawatt solar array, which powers my wastewater treatment plant.

00:09:25: My community center or seasonal swimming pool is a hundred percent powered by the sun.

00:09:30: Is that they are union shop and they have an Union apprenticeship program Which to me us?

00:09:38: Really meaningful for producing good jobs Good paying jobs For those Who Are interested in being A player In The renewable energy sector in our community.

00:09:50: So we're constantly shaking things up and Athens, but we don't keep it a secret to ourselves We are always partnering with other municipalities not only within the Appalachian region of Ohio But also groups like Reimagine Appalacha which kind of spun off or went live in parallel With another group that was called the Marshall Plan for Middle America, which we recognize that our industrial heartland here in The Ohio Valley has changed and not necessarily in the past.

00:10:25: For the better things actually got much worse when it came to a lot of our manufacturing—a lot of the steel production.

00:10:34: but this group has come together to make sure up on Capitol Hill, also in our state houses to say look we've got infrastructure in place.

00:10:50: We know that we can do better—we're all wanting to see good jobs and to be part of the renewable economy moving forward in time —and I think that we are slowly on that path regardless of the narrative coming out of The White House these days.

00:11:08: That local leaders you are the closest people.

00:11:12: And with that, it takes me two and a half hours to go through Farmers Market because everybody wants to tell you what's going on in the community.

00:11:22: What they like but they don't like which is great as my job.

00:11:25: But to be able to share those stories in The State House and also take That up to Capitol Hill We're able To convey what Is really Going On In Our Communities And Throughout The Regions.

00:11:39: So I'll put A pause There Because i know we've got a number of other questions.

00:11:42: Thank you for having

00:11:43: me.

00:11:44: No, it's great to have you and actually I've got a follow-up question from you on that particular theme.

00:11:48: if i may then come to Mayor Werzner.

00:11:54: Mayor Paterson?

00:11:54: You mentioned like the point of kind energy being absolutely central and you talked about in very tangible ways that citizens could really feel.

00:12:08: One of the kind of tensions for us in this whole project is how we describe and deliver what might be called green transformation or clean energy, climate change policies.

00:12:22: Can you say something first about how important it's been to win people over?

00:12:32: practical benefits to them like you just described, as opposed to sometimes how the campaigners might set big targets in their future.

00:12:39: But there's a nice perhaps worry voters can tell us about?

00:12:43: How important that has been because it may be really helpful for our fellows and bridging these two papers they've got together.

00:12:50: Yeah I'll put this on basically the simplest of terms which It really boils down too showing your community That are truly being good and proper steward of their taxpayer dollars.

00:13:04: City bathrooms in cities, in the state of Ohio have the ability to levy an income tax while there are a lot other cities its property tax or sales tax for things that nature.

00:13:14: In Ohio it's income tax And when I am able show them budgeted electric bill for my wastewater treatment plant each year.

00:13:26: And then also show them, here's the savings of your taxpayer dollars with using green energy to power that you know and it is about forty-five percent or fifty percent of that energy consumption coming from the sun at highest energy consuming government account that resonates with people they are sitting there going so that becomes.

00:13:48: well mayor what do?

00:13:49: two hundred and fifty, three hundred thousand dollars that you don't have to put towards your grid energy.

00:13:57: And I can sit there point other programs that are equally important.

00:14:02: we're enhancing our tree canopy or planting more trees were having more EV charging stations here in the city of Athens for people who want to.

00:14:20: There's so many layers to being able to demonstrate that this is the right path and The citizens of Athens really enjoy And respect what we've been able to accomplish.

00:14:31: Uh, in then again, the residential you know What a pain it can be to have To go for through weeks if not months Of trying to get a permit For various things do include getting solar on your roof.

00:14:42: Now You Can Have It Done Within Twenty Four Hours.

00:14:46: That means that we are pushing the envelope as far as we possibly can to make sure people have equal access to reducing their own energy bills.

00:14:56: Great, thank you

00:14:57: and I love that example of The Twenty-Four Hours because it also speaks to what we've heard from a lot voters which they're not sure... They don't necessarily believe government can deliver them any more.

00:15:08: so when getting that restriction out in the way only making easy for your people becomes more intuitive.

00:15:14: So I'm going to turn now to Eckhart Verstner, please.

00:15:18: To be able to tell us a little bit about your place and kind of story economic change but also if you have any reflections on some international cooperation work that i know that you've been involved in around climate action particularly?

00:15:35: And how can it enhance what you're doing?

00:15:43: Yeah, first of all Claire and dear my friends just try to get a small overview about my city.

00:15:49: About the situation in Germany.

00:15:51: First of all I want make a comment great success because if we have this experience exchange for next generation i think it's the best thing We can do!

00:16:02: I'm also a German martial front fellow.

00:16:04: I've done study on climate action plans of American cities thirteen years ago For the center of clean air politics in Washington.

00:16:16: So long time ago, so I was becoming an environmental mayor for my town and Now nineteen years Mayor of this town which is called Heidelberg oldest University in Germany very historic ten million tourists a year.

00:16:34: But biggest problem was when it was Becoming a charge to be the mayor that we were liking big museum.

00:16:43: It was like Venice, everybody wants to go there but the population was nearly shrinking.

00:16:50: we have the lowest burst rate.

00:16:52: and then something hit the city which also of a bigger fact my town is.

00:17:00: America left Hutterburg.

00:17:02: so U.S Army US land forces Europe were in Hutterberg.

00:17:09: The NATO was in Hatterberg.

00:17:12: So it was an area of about three hundred football fields full of houses, people gas filling stations.

00:17:22: Native headquarters were empty sixteen years ago.

00:17:26: so this was really a brownfield shift which we have to tackle.

00:17:32: We took the position over because you are not really in industrial city where more brain city or university town.

00:17:42: But we took over this new situation and really had implemented the same strategy as students mentioned.

00:17:52: We started with a huge dialogue with citizens in the main fields, how can we develop our city?

00:18:01: In which way or direction?

00:18:05: And what have been done is that we make a brutal shift to become the first city in Germany with the biggest impact of brain solutions or intellect, we always say use your brain and then you're not on a political level.

00:18:26: So we started big campaigns how to combat global warming at the local level where there was huge debate.

00:18:33: it's the industry which farmers was craft man decided yes this can be a chance for our city.

00:18:43: Use the best technology, implement the best technologies.

00:18:47: implemented new technology centers use them in practice.

00:18:51: and we decided to rebuild these three hundred football fields climate neutral And This was done by a City Council decision.

00:19:02: For The Next Years.

00:19:04: Every second year We Make A Balance Where We Are And We Wanted To Go.

00:19:09: Today It Is globally or in Europe, the biggest climate neutral city area which was built over the last fifteen years.

00:19:19: All these areas are filled up with people who have new employment structures.

00:19:24: so we created more than six to eight thousand jobs now in a town of one hundred sixty thousand inhabitants.

00:19:32: it's quite a lot and were able to implement all those new technologies on our channel.

00:19:38: so life science AI technology IT technology, and becoming today the city with the highest number of startups based on AI technology or life science.

00:19:53: We have German-wide biggest medical clinic.

00:19:56: now we've one million patients in National Center for Human Diseases European Center for Microbiology their four Max Planck institutes from Germany.

00:20:08: so it's all national supernational european wide And this concentration is now our biggest treasure.

00:20:14: So because we have no resources, no gas nor oil or coal We just sweep like a sandbox city.

00:20:24: Use technology which is available Like solar water.

00:20:29: Today the whole city was long-distance heating networks Already fifty percent based on green.

00:20:38: In five years, we are a hundred percent.

00:20:40: re-inserved the whole city all buildings not only the residential or Not Only The Municipal Owned Buildings We have today.

00:20:50: The highest number of citizens using bike About seventy nine Percent Of The Citizens Are Not Using A Car Anymore They're Using Bicycles.

00:21:00: they're Using The Mass Transport Which We Spent A Lot Of Many and as a pedestrian through downtown.

00:21:11: Now we have done this, We make a big shift!

00:21:14: We were an administration who changed it to become the biggest developer in Germany.

00:21:26: So what we created first is a city bank.

00:21:30: I've now in my City Bank about six billion Euro which are used for companies and buildings companies industry companies and so on.

00:21:42: We kept rebuild our own energy utility, the biggest cash machine we have is now our energy utility could use a lot of money by buying green energy and selling green energy.

00:21:57: it's also a money making process not only an environment program but do you sell?

00:22:02: We can co finance mass transport system which is brutally expensive.

00:22:07: there always are some programs.

00:22:09: So we become a little bit more independent from national wide programs and Become by doing all those programs.

00:22:18: A real actor not only an administration who's implementing dialogue books, using new tools.

00:22:31: We behave like the mega developer in our city And we use a lot of private investment because we don't have the money.

00:22:40: But what we've done through these structures, therefore I always say that we need as structure discussion is empower cities.

00:22:47: That's what were doing in Germany and thats why i'm always trying to discuss with my friends from Chicago With lawyer Lightfoot for example when she was in charge as mayor.

00:23:01: Gary Newsom is a good friend of mine who was not the governor at that time when he was in San Francisco and Eric Assetti.

00:23:16: So we had all those long tradition corporations to empower us because what we noticed, there's really new way... Not only communication but also behavior.

00:23:31: We cities we are the power houses.

00:23:34: We other democracy based infrastructures who kept future concepts and by doing so sometimes, we're getting too effective.

00:23:46: This might stress some times a little bit also national governments.

00:23:51: But this is the way into the future And we wanted to be good partners but we want it all sort of have a fair and clear commitment to be empowered.

00:24:02: so if you have not local and regional power programs based on looking for water resources use them by yourself or energy resources decentralized resources.

00:24:14: that's not only PG&E for example Pacific Gas and Electric company is taking over the whole energy supply.

00:24:21: You have to work with your original local resource, thats way into future.

00:24:26: That's what German cities always try to do.

00:24:29: The reason why we're working together with Bloomberg, that is the reason why Halleberg is an expert city in C-Forties initiative.

00:24:36: also if were very small I brought Bloomberg into European Cities Network.

00:24:41: so We are working now together on our initiative of the compact of mayors With about fourteen thousand mayors on global scale.

00:24:56: Everybody make this up commitment.

00:24:58: That's the way into the future.

00:25:00: and By coming back to the students, I have to say absolutely right away But please don't misunderstand me You have to look a little bit in two details.

00:25:12: because those cities who are empowered or empower themselves by taking over lead energy supply water supply mass transport system city bank giving loans to all those partners.

00:25:30: If you look at these structures, You notice who is really going into the future because if you don't empower cities in this direction.

00:25:39: only a City of dialogue.

00:25:40: it's not enough.

00:25:42: and The main movement we have in Germany now there are also small comment last common women.

00:25:49: Women leaving towns with no hope that what you mentioned in your report.

00:25:58: If you have no hope, especially young women good educated or young woman leave your child and then You just have boys Not so good educated.

00:26:09: we have very heavy political shift.

00:26:12: We can't get the city under control.

00:26:15: So try to create a structure where?

00:26:18: Women's notice you have good schools with kindergarten that their life is Perspective for them.

00:26:25: Then they don't leave the city.

00:26:27: Today, as I mentioned, Harburg lowest birth rate in Germany... ...Harburg today is a city with the youngest population in Germany.

00:26:36: Why kids not from overseas?

00:26:38: Kids form all over Germany and Europe Because women are coming with their kids to our cities.

00:26:46: And this then a perspective for the future.

00:26:48: So many thanks.

00:26:50: Thank you, that was um I think completely fascinating and i think being able to describe the role of almost the state at that city level as Being a developer an enabler us

00:27:02: uh

00:27:03: being almost hungry To make the opportunities happen rather than relying on quite old forms of governance.

00:27:10: Um?

00:27:10: I just have one question for you And then I'm gonna want to come back to Mayor con yeti particularly about the relationship between the local what we might say to Congress, like what that message up if you liked the next level is.

00:27:23: But my question to you Mayor and Vilsner was just... If you were listening to this and you are a city leader who hadn't gone down his path yet but was inspired by what you said when do start?

00:27:40: Where I started?

00:27:41: Well where would you..if wanted follow the part taken in Heidelberg?

00:27:47: You've understood the assets in your place.

00:27:50: I would say one sentence, think global at local.

00:27:55: it's not a stupid sentence.

00:27:57: Think Global means use global knowledge.

00:28:00: you have to use global Knowledge and you have To believe in knowledge if you do so.

00:28:08: And uh...you try to convince Your citizens by doing So.

00:28:12: of course this is sometimes easier In university town then other towns that if you do so, you can create hope by showing opportunities.

00:28:25: I'll give to just one example.

00:28:28: when i started this political debate our buildings which were super efficient much better than Leeds gold standard in the US.

00:28:37: they weren't too expensive.

00:28:38: no hardware building company wants to build.

00:28:42: I went to international friends.

00:28:49: They said, hey, that's a future-oriented concept.

00:28:54: it works if you get the support and they supported.

00:28:59: at the beginning.

00:28:59: this was very important.

00:29:02: so Use those global approaches To show that with this approach You can create money for the city to subsidize the social and school programs, education programs which cost a lot of money.

00:29:20: And by doing so you create hope that can change something.

00:29:24: Also if start with small projects Normal schools users in Germany or maybe also in Dallas In other cities Or in essence Like you About one hundred fifty thousand Euro per year.

00:29:42: the same for just for energy consumption.

00:29:45: The same school gets from my town, twenty thousand so less a little bit more than ten percent for books and computers or everything.

00:29:55: So they get nearly ten percent of education And the rest is for energy.

00:30:00: Stupid story!

00:30:03: If you stay on this track You lose always.

00:30:06: We make computer programs in schools of the energy bill reduction for your school.

00:30:16: So this schools started programs, reducing the energy build by closing their windows starting awareness campaigns.

00:30:25: just by doing so without any technical solutions you could reduce the energy building twenty percent and more.

00:30:31: .So they doubled that money.

00:30:33: ,so now forty five thousand euro per year.

00:30:37: it was a big success And we will reduce the energy bill and this was also an impact for The environment.

00:30:45: that the main point was.

00:30:47: they make business with us Yeah, not only environmental programs and earn their own money for good education.

00:30:57: Great stuff.

00:30:58: Thank you very much.

00:31:00: I know just got a couple minutes left so i'm gonna come back to Mayor Patterson if I may On this question that you're also involved in the National League of Cities as well.

00:31:11: So I just wanted to get your, finally kind of your reflections on how mayors can be really empowered to achieve the local transformations we are talking about and anything you'd like say for the future of these transatlantic relations which have been such an integral part.

00:31:36: basically saying to Mayor Cognetti, sing it.

00:31:39: Everything that the mayor said is spot on and its been a real challenge.

00:31:48: but The National League of Cities this year under my leadership we are really taking up major effort.

00:32:02: You know, I have had more international trips this year.

00:32:13: the heartland, German Heartland and kind of see what's going on there.

00:32:35: And so that all said you know it's incumbent upon us to continue to be The Voice telling the real stories up on the hill.

00:32:44: NLC That's What We Do.

00:32:47: U.S.

00:32:47: Conference Of Mayors...that is what they do as well.

00:32:51: A lot of the big seven are always sitting there advocating hard for things we currently experiencing, I'll be really quick with this.

00:33:01: Much like the mayor had just mentioned we were actually under contract with a department of transportation for sixteen point million dollars under IRA, The Inflation Reduction Act to put in two hundred and fifty charge stations for EVs from Dayton Ohio all the way to Athens along the Appalachian Highway.

00:33:23: And unfortunately that doge kind of happened too.

00:33:25: it everything stopped, that funding has been pulled back.

00:33:32: We're still somewhat hopeful.

00:33:35: but you know to share on the hill and a lot of the areas that you see throughout the Appalachian region are impoverished areas for sundry different reasons.

00:33:48: some of it is because of the extractive economies they've lived through.

00:33:54: It's having to share the message on The Hill that you're hurting, your harming those who are in most need and also the most desire to prosper like everyone else is.

00:34:06: So I would just encourage all mayors internationally to continue to partner.

00:34:14: one of things really struck me when i was on a trip to Germany whether it was in Bonn, Duisburg or Berlin.

00:34:26: The lack of trust.

00:34:27: the United States and I had to flip that narrative on its head say.

00:34:31: i understand exactly what you're saying but please don't misconstrue the narrative coming out at White House as that us who are mayors our own communities because we want these relationships.

00:34:42: We want cultivate everything.

00:34:44: things I saw Germany were just unbelievable and positive.

00:34:51: And I'm going, you know...I was like any good mayor are stealing all these ideas that i'm bringing them back to Athens again in deploying them but wanting to have this relationship continue on moving forward because it's us That is our total responsibility To keep the cultivation of subnational diplomacy Going while The White House has decided to strip It away.

00:35:15: we can't allow that to happen.

00:35:18: We need to keep working hard on relationships around the globe.

00:35:24: And in particular, you know across transatlantic lines.

00:35:29: I was in Ukraine and my heritage comes from Ukraine and i sit there and see what's going on there too...and we have to step in and do everything we possibly can to help!

00:35:40: You cannot watch a sovereign nation become dismantled by an individual who is basically a maniac who's lost their mind and allowed that to happen.

00:35:49: In these turbulent times, transatlantic cooperation is more important than ever.

00:35:54: it is refreshing and inspiring to see how industrial heartlands can benefit from each other when transatlantic channels are open.

00:36:02: what I personally took away from the conversation Is to think global and act local?

00:36:07: That means understand the global and national trends by tailoring your actions to the local circumstances For example, making solar attractive by allowing fast and easy installation.

00:36:19: in connecting the economic benefits from using renewables with local income tax in Athens.

00:36:29: He explores the political whiplash of shifting national policies and the enduring struggle to protect community heritage in times of structural transformation.

00:36:54: His compelling essay is linked on show notes.

00:36:58: Tune into our next episode where we want look at a bigger picture!

00:37:02: We will put this spotlight on second panel as closing conference, but here what two esteemed transatlantic thinkers and practitioners had say about decisive role for the future of our industrial heartlands in times of an unprecedented transatlantic rupture.

00:37:20: Thank you very much for listening to our podcast, Talking Progress, a podcast that explores progressive ideas for Germany Europe and Transatlantic Spaces.

00:37:30: This podcast is produced on context of the Transatlantic Dialogue on the Industrial Heartlands Project a project that has progressive centrum and distinguished partners at the Progressive Policy Institute, Georgetown University's BMW Center for German-European Studies & The Chicago Council on Global Affairs.

00:37:49: And with support of the German Federal Ministry for Economic Affairs & Climate Action.

00:37:55: For more information please visit our website at industrial-hardlands.com or check the link in show notes.