00:00:00: Hello and welcome to our final episode.

00:00:03: My name is Jan Kierlanger, And you're listening to Talking Progress a podcast by das progressivitzentrum.

00:00:10: This podcast explores new ideas for social progress in Germany Europe and transatlantic spaces.

00:00:16: Today You are listening to out Transatlantic series on the industrial heartlands and their just transition.

00:00:22: this Podcast as part of our project called Transatlantic dialogue On The Industrial Heartlands shaping the future.

00:00:29: It's a collaborative effort led by Das Progressive Zentrum, working alongside our dear partners at the Progressive Policy Institute, Georgetown University's BMW Center for German-European Studies and the Chicago Council on Global Affairs.

00:00:42: The industrial heartlands of US & Germany are at critical crossroads – these former centers have become front lines to economic upheaval and rise in nationalist movements.

00:00:54: Our project stepped into the scab, building a resilient network of regional experts to champion local green and democratic solutions.

00:01:03: While these regions often slip off the national radar they remain in decisive arenas where future democracy is being fought.

00:01:12: The lasting legacy for our work is a permanent connection between leaders & experts that will endure long after this project ends.

00:01:21: At our closing conference in December twenty-twenty five titled Heartlands, navigating rearmament recarbonization and realignment.

00:01:29: we also explored a vital piece of this puzzle.

00:01:32: The role of subnational diplomacy in shaping the future of transatlantic relations.

00:01:38: Think back to three years ago when this project launched.

00:01:41: We were living through moment of remarkable unity!

00:01:44: The US & Europe stood shoulder by shoulder In solidarity with Ukraine and we were determined to channel the momentum into real place-based policies for the industrial heartlands.

00:01:55: We were hopeful, we were aligned but as we have reached the end of our project the geopolitical landscape has shifted dramatically.

00:02:03: The language coming out of Washington has moved from calling Europe an ally to a partner And now under latest national security strategy it feels like In our final episode we are pushing past the headlines.

00:02:20: Beyond negative press and geopolitical friction, We're putting spotlight on the path forward.

00:02:27: How do we keep building strong transatlantic relations when official ties are fraying?

00:02:32: And how can subnational diplomacy and transnational initiatives at local level offer a new way ahead?

00:02:40: At this second panel of our closing conference revolving around the future We welcomed two distinguished experts and practitioners from the

00:02:49: U.S.,

00:02:50: Nina Hashigian, and John Orston who talked with us about their transition strategies.

00:02:56: John Orsten is a senior fellow in Eisenhower Institute at Gettysburg College ,a non-resident senior fellow at Brookings Institution & also member of our project consultium.

00:03:07: In these roles, he has been the author of some of most influential analysis on politics and economics in industrial heartlands as well as tangible guides for policy makers around constructive action.

00:03:21: Nina Asigin is a founder of Allies – A platform connecting cities & leaders to advance global cooperation.

00:03:29: Under twenty-twenty four she was US Special Representative for city and state diplomacy coordinating international engagement for US local and state governments.

00:03:40: As national governments face unprecedented tension, a geopolitical realignment – A new vanguard of transatlantic cooperation is emerging at the local level.

00:03:51: This discussion explores how cities in industrial heartlands are stepping up to preserve democratic values drive innovation and tackle shared challenges like climate change.

00:04:03: By shifting the focus to sub-national leaders, The conversation reveals a resilient framework for global economic opportunity order, anchored in community led vision and shared prosperity.

00:04:15: Enjoy listening to this exchange moderated by Florian Ramft member of the management board.

00:04:21: head off Greeno Deal at Das Progressive Centrum.

00:04:24: Great to have you both with us Nina.

00:04:29: I want come first to give us your perspective, you view on what we can do going forward in building lasting relationships.

00:04:43: In the transatlantic space?

00:04:46: Thank you Florian and it's exciting to be here with fellow travelers who have heard about this project for a while appreciative of it, impressed with that and I think everyone seems to have gotten a lot out.

00:05:01: So yeah so I'm Nina Hachigi again as the first special representative for City & State Diplomacy but i am here today representing my new non-profit called Allies.

00:05:12: We work to connect cities and regions around the world exchange ideas solutions solidarity on shared challenges such as AI, pandemics governance climate change.

00:05:24: You just heard this amazing panel of local leaders from the United States and Germany describe their engagement that is driving innovation in renewal.

00:05:35: these these mayors described how they're supporting transatlantic ties, and I'd like to share why.

00:05:43: Why i expect the subnational collaboration to grow and become increasingly essential to maintaining the strength of the transatlantic relationship.

00:05:53: so as you've already discussed uh transatlanic relations that the national level are in trouble.

00:06:01: In the past year, we've seen unprecedented and unpredictable U.S.

00:06:05: tariffs disrupt trade in supply chains.

00:06:08: We have seen heightened tension and uncertainty within NATO around our support for Ukraine And its valiant fight to defend itself against Russia.

00:06:19: The US retreat from it's traditional security posture.

00:06:24: I think the first alarm bell or allowed alarm Bell was, we heard when Vice President Vance made remarks in Munich last year.

00:06:36: And as we now know these threats are only growing darker and more urgent.

00:06:49: It's quite shocking, for someone who has been in international relations.

00:06:55: For as long I have been that we are lecturing Europe about its civilizational erasure and it is our job to manage Europe's relationship with Russia.

00:07:09: so all of us obviously threaten the health the innovation and renewal that they foster, the jobs that they create in all of our communities.

00:07:21: And the democratic values and liberties that make the foundation of our partnership.

00:07:26: so now it's on us!

00:07:27: The cities.

00:07:29: we can add to it the list of other things that are responsible for climate action, women's empowerment racial equity pluralism transparency.

00:07:40: These all now in on-the-shoulders city and county state regional leaders.

00:07:53: But we can do it.

00:07:53: More than half the world's population lives in cities, they are... We are where most GDP is produced and most private sector jobs are created And that number is only growing.

00:08:06: So local leaders and particularly mayors Are most connected to their constituents.

00:08:11: Surveys always show That They're The Most Trusted.

00:08:14: As we have seen recently In New York mayoral campaigns Can energize large blockers.

00:08:22: So when it comes to regions historically underrepresented in the central levels such as the heartland, local leaders are the ones who were best situated to advocate for them.

00:08:36: We can talk further about what I think we need to do but... It's clearly now on the local elective leader is take this relationship forward.

00:08:56: Thank you, Nina before I turn to John.

00:08:58: You know just one quick follow-up question?

00:09:01: I mean you've been right in the center ground and building relations city to City at the multilateral stage.

00:09:13: Where do you see kind of momentum in space maybe innovation To strengthen and kind of build new relations at the moment?

00:09:23: is it with civil society actors, is it with local leaders?

00:09:30: Where do you see maybe some hope that we can all build on.

00:09:37: When I'm with groups of local leaders i feel a lot of hope.

00:09:41: um...I know its the case in The United States That there are an increasing number of organizations and people who are focused at the state and local level, understanding now that this is a place where they can actually support efforts to move them all forward in some way.

00:10:08: Some national foreign policy used like me and four other people who we're interested in for some time.

00:10:18: And it's really grown, I feel quite encouraging.

00:10:24: Then you heard Steve Patterson—I think its mayors or governors are realizing they need to preserve these relationships that creating jobs you know, were responsible than in the past.

00:10:41: So and then like allies is going to host in Munich I think the first ever panel of mayors at The Munich Security Conference.

00:10:53: so i think um You know what?

00:10:56: We've gotten a lot of interest by American Mayors about how to develop their international engagement strategies.

00:11:04: They may have been interested before, but now they actually want to figure out what to do.

00:11:10: Obviously the climate space has a lot of long-standing collaboration internationally and those ties are something that is possible for other purposes as well.

00:11:26: so anyway we're really happy.

00:11:30: You can always reach us at infoatallies.net, but I am actually hopeful.

00:11:37: Excellent thank you Nina.

00:11:39: so we need to grow and scale up the existing Corporation in relationships and build on that And there couldn't be anyone more suitable to follow-up on this.

00:11:51: it's John.

00:11:53: you've built and formed so many relations across the Atlantic.

00:11:59: you've recently spent time in Bonn as a fellow there at the North Rhine Westphalia international school.

00:12:10: Once in a while, I get an impression you're already speaking like European rather than someone from the US.

00:12:17: Especially because he's put a lot of thought into issues on Europe's strategic autonomy and how this relates to a robust transatlantic corporation amidst United States.

00:12:31: geopolitical realignment John what are your thoughts?

00:12:38: How can we strengthen the relations going forward?

00:12:43: Happy to be with you, and I'm eager to share my encouragement and recommendations on that score.

00:12:49: First of all yeah i'm back after six months in Europe and Germany firmly ensconced here in the industrial heartland just down the street hearing Lansing Michigan is that image behind me which where Ransom Olds, later of Oldsmobile founder invented the mass production auto assembly line before Henry IV.

00:13:13: And as much there's a giant GM factory behind that.

00:13:16: power plant was built in nineteen thirty to begin to service this industry.

00:13:21: but I also am happy too sort be back and able keep working together with, you know this partnership that we've been building.

00:13:34: And I would say if anything seeing the fellows congratulating the fellow seen all of you on The meeting is not encouraging but there's tremendous momentum and There's tremendous purposeful work That all of You were doing around the things that We created.

00:13:48: these initiatives including the heartland transformation network which will continue to share lessons insights And provide moral support and encouragement to leaders across both sides of the Atlantic, to accelerate economic opportunity building for people that aren't feeling it naturally.

00:14:07: It can be a big continuing contribution to healing our politics.

00:14:12: Like Steve Patterson in The Mayor was great on the trip with you Steve I as an American am pained by an administration that is animating values, which are absolutely antithetical to what most Americans and certainly this American feel we are about.

00:14:29: And I think part of...I think will be back playing the constructive leadership role in a world where you need play on democracy building economy with our friends and allies but may have lost for good certain things like trust I felt it in Europe, the trust that we wouldn't turn bad again.

00:14:52: And also the admiration of Europe and Germans.

00:14:57: That was...I relate back to people here.

00:15:00: what do people think about?

00:15:01: They're sad!

00:15:02: Germans admired U.S for this inspiring role building democracy, building freedom encouraging others find their future supporting them.

00:15:11: Now don't pay too much attention though.

00:15:15: its hard.

00:15:16: This national security strategy, this came out very rarely only with like NSC-Sixty-Eight that framed containment after the cold and built a Cold War.

00:15:26: Do these strategies have any real impact or purpose?

00:15:31: Certainly in this administration it has no strategy except they'd like to goad Europe and get Europe's goat And make Europe react.

00:15:38: I really want my main message In terms of what we do.

00:15:41: you're up take heart and confidence.

00:15:45: You collectively the EU is got a GDP and an economy that is way bigger than China.

00:15:54: And roughly on par just behind US's economy, if you work together with allies who want to continue to strengthen A collective family of nations at respect rules and freedoms and rights in open trade Work with UK worked with Canada work with Asia work with a developing world, you have the collective strength to build your own robust economy and push back against authoritarians which I'm paying note include temporarily my country.

00:16:30: The way we will change and reject Trump is already beginning happen when people are hurting economically or in cost of living going up not down.

00:16:43: Witnesses following approval raise below forty percent including on the economy.

00:16:47: He's thirty points underwater On that, uh The things that he promised to make life better To lower prices and be able to bear economy for those on the margins who took a chance on him And put them back in office?

00:16:59: He's done it one year.

00:17:00: what it took Victor Orban to do in ten years of kleptocracy and disabling Government services to basically have the public turn on you I'd say no we want government to work for us deliver education health care and a decent standard of living where we have a chance.

00:17:16: And that's all beginning to undermine, so Europe can help by continuing to put pressure on and punish the U.S economically because that is already how it began to turn.

00:17:29: or are the public here turning on Trump?

00:17:32: And as looking for any excuse witness elections one month ago to vote Republicans out-of office who clearly complicit in enabling him.

00:17:41: There's no uncertainty about that anymore.

00:17:43: So, you know don't try not to cow-towl To the US.

00:17:47: it's painful for me to see nations kisses ring.

00:17:50: You know give them a few golf clubs And be polite but then go quietly to build A stronger collective economic family of nation.

00:17:59: so my three recommendations to Europe are one yes lead The building.

00:18:03: other this what I'm calling a global economic opportunity order.

00:18:07: as i said if you work with the rest of the freedom-loving, rights respecting rules respecting nations.

00:18:16: Australia Canada Mexico Asia Singapore South Korea you have a way bigger economy join and lead The Future Of Investment And Trade Partnership.

00:18:26: these are nations like Singapore in Norway that banded together saying we want to continue an open rules based right respecting freedom loving order.

00:18:35: You've got to engage and offer better option or development.

00:18:40: um, growth-oriented that's freedom respecting.

00:18:42: to the developing world.

00:18:44: don't think you have to accept China as

00:18:46: rules.

00:18:47: China does not respect civil rights human rights uh and you don't need to count how to china either.

00:18:54: You need to be not naive about.

00:18:57: China is eager to remake a global order so that authoritarians who Don't have any respect for human right?

00:19:04: Don't really believe in sustainable solution.

00:19:08: You know, they're trying to rewire the sustainable development goals.

00:19:11: To not leave any individual behind which is what Europe and Germany in the rest of us have been pushing for.

00:19:18: They don't want to leave any country because I didn't want anyone meddling.

00:19:21: How you can basically punish?

00:19:23: And not respect civil rights and human rights in any country.

00:19:26: that's Not acceptable should never be acceptable.

00:19:30: so To build your own high-tech economy there's something we're trying actively support Europe needs growth, Germany's need for growth.

00:19:40: You have to get good as we have demonstrated and are at building the dynamic new high-growth startups disruptive technologies that change the economic game.

00:19:49: And also so you're not being subject of blackmail by our high tech oligarchs who know As we speak want access to your up on their terms.

00:19:57: Not play by Your rules.

00:19:58: don't cave in.

00:20:00: I insist that you play but That is contingent.

00:20:02: you need High Tech your own high tech for your own defense.

00:20:06: It's essential and you'll never be able to defend yourself until you build your own high tech industry.

00:20:10: And there's lots going on that shows, You can in Europe but we all need to work together to help.

00:20:15: We may have a side event at Munich On this topic.

00:20:19: How do we all help?

00:20:20: Your bill.

00:20:21: finally the High Growth High Tech economy.

00:20:23: number three keep focusing on industrial heartland regions But also link The current Needs an agenda like rearmament and view it as good.

00:20:35: If we if Europe rearms, it's going to build out its defense industrial complex in regions where they have the The infrastructure and muster to do that.

00:20:44: That's a good thing I am.

00:20:45: i'm gonna encourage my fellows tomorrow To don't view these things as negatives.

00:20:49: turn them into positives.

00:20:51: Rearmament recarbonization because if we don't bring In our countries economic open opportunity people then aren't finding.

00:20:59: naturally They will keep being responsive to the agents of anti-democratic ethno nationalists.

00:21:08: So we have to keep on that score and I appreciate everybody joining today, talk about how you do that.

00:21:13: Excellent thank you John.

00:21:15: as always To The Point with plenty recommendations for European leaders and policy makers.

00:21:23: I want get back.

00:21:24: there is a question asking whether they might be some momentum to reinvigorate Maybe better sister twin partner city initiatives of the past decades around The theme of heartlands climate post-industrial left behind places and I was gonna ask both of you actually What would be?

00:21:49: We've talked a lot about climate.

00:21:53: Friedrich on Colleen at the very beginning set this scene with their policy recommendations Knitting and connecting kind of the places in the identity of places, on issues belonging with civic engagement civil society.

00:22:16: With a more stronger innovation orientated economy.

00:22:22: so what?

00:22:23: In your view are potential themes and topics for local and city leaders in the

00:22:32: U.S.,

00:22:34: to keep cooperating, keeping Transatlantic Spirit alive?

00:22:39: John, may I come back first?

00:22:41: then Nina?

00:22:43: Yeah though i was eager to defer to Nina but two things one on important urgent tasks that we need continue advance like ameliorating climate change reminding each other, as I think was noted by all of our mayors.

00:23:03: But the reality America which is a problem child now under national leadership but also you know there's some walk back in Germany and Europe from.

00:23:13: are we going to grow green as aggressively or not?

00:23:17: The two-thirds of our economy into

00:23:19: U.S.,

00:23:19: since probably it can't in Europe, is controlled in geographies that are committed and will stay committed to climate change, amelioration.

00:23:33: And going green?

00:23:35: That's the overwhelming share of our net product and our net economy.

00:23:41: so if those mayors and governors work together with peers in Baden-Württemberg, North Rhine-Westphalia or elsewhere they can continue this course as it was talked about today.

00:23:51: learn from each other.

00:23:53: how do we do these things?

00:23:56: well approaches.

00:23:57: And then the collective effort is going to trump just like it did under Trump.

00:24:02: one, whatever Trump decides.

00:24:05: do leave Paris?

00:24:06: No!

00:24:06: The bulk of U.S economy saying no we're not leaving Paris... We are staying in Paris.

00:24:11: Two I thought the recommendations and some of the fellows papers around how where can engage on a sub-national level were exactly right key locally driven, locally owned strategic plans and visions that are empowering in an authored by the community.

00:24:32: So it's not a particular topic about Are we going to go green?

00:24:37: Or are you gonna build innovation infrastructure or building infrastructure?

00:24:40: We're gonna educate everybody is what Is The way we get our Community making an effective vision That their vision Whatever they may be building whatever assets They have that we need to help communities share and nurture.

00:24:59: Thank you, John.

00:25:01: You know which themes and topics should be focused on going forward?

00:25:06: I'm just building on what John said his last comment there.

00:25:09: So how you do that public engagement I think is really interesting.

00:25:13: There's lots of experiments around the world and in like participatory budgeting, various tech platforms that allow more people to have a role in what we might call deliberative democracy.

00:25:30: so sharing about actually doing it well I'd say it would be a topic.

00:25:36: Another one would be engaging young people in your community, like what are effective ways that mayors and governors have done that?

00:25:46: or you know...in Europe and the United States?

00:25:49: And can we learn from each other about

00:25:52: that?".

00:25:54: Another one will be AI and use of regulation but also the use within government way that brings along workers and is used not just for, you know.

00:26:12: That when it's public facing is actually also an instrument of civic education in a values reflection.

00:26:22: so I'd say another topic would benefit by the transatlantic conversation.

00:26:31: In an era of national level friction, subnational diplomacy has evolved from a niche interest into the essential anchor to the transatlantic relationship.

00:26:42: The core takeaway is clear – cities and regions are now the primary guardians for global order built on rules rights in sub-national resilience.

00:26:52: As we look toward future of transatlantic relations staying stronger together of shifting national administrations.

00:27:03: This project was built on the mission of empowering a new generation of young leaders to have a definite voice in this discourse, ensuring that the heartlands and both U.S.

00:27:14: & Europe are no longer bystander but a central driver for innovation and

00:27:19: opportunity.".

00:27:20: The road ahead requires us to grow this network.

00:27:29: By providing fresh perspectives and tangible economic opportunities to our regions, we keep the transatlantic channels open.

00:27:38: Thank you very much for listening to our podcast Talking Progress – The Podcast that Explores Progressive Ideas For Germany, Europe And Transatlantic Spaces.

00:27:48: This was a final episode of our series.

00:27:51: While this chapter concludes Our mission remains steadfast ensuring no community is overlooked and that the industrial hardlands, soon to be left behind regions, remain beating heart of a resilient and inclusive transatlantic future.

00:28:06: This podcast is produced in context with the Transatlantic Dialogue on the Industrial Hardlands Project.

00:28:13: The project put us progressive at Centrum and distinguished partners at the Progressive Policy Institute, Georgetown University's BMW Center for German-European Studies with the support of the German Federal Ministry for Economic Affairs and Climate Action.

00:28:32: For more information, please visit our website at industrial-hardlands.com or check the link in our show notes.